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Critical and Logical Writing

Page history last edited by Steve Moss 12 years, 3 months ago Saved with comment

'Developing a critical and logical argument when writing'

 

#phdchat tweet log - 28th December 2011

 

@NSRiazat - Welcome to the last #phdchat of 2011 - the topic tonight is 'developing a critical and logical argument when writing'. #phd

@sarahthesheepu - @NSRiazat my best and most logical chapter was my conclusion i think #phdchat

@lizgloyn - Good evening, good people of #phdchat!

@lizgloyn - I think developing a critical and logical argument has to be seen as a process; takes time & a lot of writing/editing to get right. #phdchat

@ai1sa - @lizgloyn and a lot of rewriting....#phdchat

@JeffreyKeefer - @NSRiazat I can certainly benefit from tips on "developing a ceritical and logical argument when writing" #phdchat

@ai1sa - my argument took many many words to get to...and then it's about pruning back to let it show #phdchat

@NSRiazat - @sarahthesheepu @lizgloyn - find it hard to develop a critical argument succinctly. Good at writing up but not always critically #phdchat

@lizgloyn - @NSRiazat I find that distance and another pair of friendly eyes helps me tighten the stuff I don't see the first time around #phdchat

@ChrisSPlant - #phdchat Does anyone else start at the end and work backwards? e.g. What's my take home message and how am I going to build up to it?

@JeffreyKeefer - @ai1sa What was your process, say everything and then trim to the core? #phdchat

@rjhogue - Hi everyone! Hope you all had a good Christmas #phdchat

@MisaimedBrain - @NSRiazat @sarahthesheepu @lizgloyn I struggle with critical writing. I think its sometimes easier to bring out in revisions. #phdchat

@JackieKirkham - @NSRiazat I found my supervisors were invaluable for this-helped me see wood for trees. As went on, I got better at it myself #phdchat

@JeffreyKeefer - I find I have to edit and edit and then share it with others for feedback, at which point I realize often enough I am too vague #phdchat

@NSRiazat - #phdchat - how would we all define what being 'critical' looks like in our writing? What do we look for? Different meanings for all of us?

@rjhogue - I tend to use outlining in MS Word to figure out how everything will flow before writing too much detail #phdchat

@sarahthesheepu - @NSRiazat @lizgloyn apparently i was too shy to actually say why things happened at time so remember put your opinion in #phdchat

@JeffreyKeefer - @ChrisSPlant Perhaps, but a danger is proving something you already decided is true even before the evidence #phdchat

@rjhogue - For me, I think critical means having an opinion and expressing it ... good or bad. #phdchat

@sarahthesheepu - @ai1sa i cant say i agreed with supervisor or examiners at the time though #phdchat

@JeffreyKeefer - When I try to think critically, I find brainstorming works, and then they become my sections #phdchat

@kesloane - @NSRiazat Critical-for me- means exploring the existing literature, peeling back & questioning the accepted wisdom. #phdchat

@lindaurban - Me 2! RT @rjhogue: I tend 2 use outlining in MSWord 2 figure out how everything will flow before writing 2 much detail #phdchat #techcomm

@JackieKirkham - @ChrisSPlant #phdchat I did other way round (grounded theory). Data felt like tangled up net, 90% of writing was untangling the net. 1/2

@JeffreyKeefer - @NSRiazat Yes, though just being critical, or using critical thinking to come to your own conclusions? #phdchat

@JackieKirkham - @ChrisSPlant #phdchat but once data untangled, ability to be critical, and also conclusions, flowed quite easily.

@kesloane - @NSRiazat I think that's spot on. #phdchat

@lizgloyn - @MisaimedBrain Hardest thing for me to realise was that to get my best writing, and best argument, I *had* to edit #phdchat

@JeffreyKeefer - @kesloane @NSRiazat I at times try to think of what appears to be the opposite view and then consider what I can learn from it #phdchat

@lizgloyn - @MisaimedBrain When I realised that, it changed the whole way I felt about the writing process, and made it an actual process #phdchat

@LBA_OX12 - Does it get easier the further U get into PhD? #phdchat

@ai1sa - @JeffreyKeefer yes; but actually the core didnt evolve until i said most everything :) #phdchat

@MisaimedBrain - I usually scribble plans on paper - let's me muck about with arrows and linking ideas etc. #phdchat

@lizgloyn - @NSRiazat I'd say critical can mean establishing why something is the case, not taking what others have said for granted #phdchat

@NSRiazat - @rjhogue - It's about not accepting things as status quo? Critique of existing research by established academics takes confidence. #phdchat

@MisaimedBrain - @lizgloyn Editing is tough. But you end up with a much better piece of work. I can hardly believe some chapters are mine! #phdchat

@kesloane - @JeffreyKeefer As you become expert, writing can become sloppy. I'm guilty of leaving out details I've discovered on the way. #phdchat

@lizgloyn - @JeffreyKeefer I'd say that being critical can sometimes lead through to your own conclusions, so not 2 distinct things #phdchat

@ChrisSPlant - @MisaimedBrain Got to make sure you use the plans pretty quickly though. I found my plans undecipherable even after a few days #phdchat

@JeffreyKeefer - @ai1sa So is it fair to say that the process of writing itself helps you to think and process? #phdchat

@MisaimedBrain - @LBA_OX12 Definitely. You get used to the process, and what you need to do. #phdchat

@sarahthesheepu - for me to do best i had to tell people more about why i thought things were happening & be confident #phdchat

@ChrisSPlant - @MisaimedBrain although probably speaks more to my ability to get a detailed AND clear plan down #phdchat

@kesloane - @JeffreyKeefer @NSRiazat Great point! I try to do this as well. #phdchat

@savasavasava - @NSRiazat "being critical" to me = examining all aspects as they do or don't apply to what is being studied. and then look at self. #phdchat

@MisaimedBrain - @ChrisSPlant True. I usually work from a plan the day I write it, and hope that sets enough structure in place. #phdchat

@rou09 - @JeffreyKeefer #phdchat , this,vague, is my writing problem.I always write thinking that the materials r obvious.

@ai1sa - @JeffreyKeefer absolutely...not till i write that i think #phdchat

@JeffreyKeefer - @lizgloyn Perhaps, though there are many more people who are critical but do not contribute to knowledge or the field #phdchat

@jenny_wakefield - I've learned tht any research design intervention shld b driven by a logic model so the logic shld b built into the develpmnt stage #PhDchat

@JeffreyKeefer - @rou09 The best solution for that, though often a painful one, is presenting your work to others for constructive feedback #phdchat

@ai1sa - On writing: maybe its outsourcing my thinking that then lets me rearrange, deepen, clarify, my thinking #phdchat

@LBA_OX12 - @MisaimedBrain That explains why I'm finding it so hard now #phdchat

@JeffreyKeefer - @savasavasava @NSRiazat Of course, it is a skill to not prematurely dismiss things that initially seem extraneous! #phdchat

@ai1sa - @MisaimedBrain i write/meander a river/ and then impose the structure retrospectively, several times over #phdchat

@JeffreyKeefer - @sarahthesheepu Ooh, you raised what for me is a key concept, confidence. That is a challenge when developing original thought! #phdchat

@MisaimedBrain - @ai1sa Oh, me too. But I need a 'first version' structure that I can then horribly butcher. #phdchat

@JeffreyKeefer - @ai1sa What do you mean by "outsourcing my thinking"? #phdchat

@MisaimedBrain - @ai1sa I think that is an important point: don't keep your thoughts all to yourself! #phdchat

@JeffreyKeefer - @jenny_wakefield Can you talk more about this "logic model"? #phdchat

@ai1sa - @JeffreyKeefer putting it on paper, well actually the screen. Its a bit like long division i cant do that much thinking in my head #phdchat

@lizgloyn - @ai1sa I know what you mean - have to have something written down to get going with rather than all hypothetical! #phdchat

@ai1sa - @jenny_wakefield im not convinced logic has a lot to do with it. i think logic is oft imposed retrospectively #phdchat

@JeffreyKeefer - Just noticed that the new Twitter lists real names BEFORE usernames. No wonder I recognize avatars but not names afterward! #phdchat

@sarahthesheepu - @JeffreyKeefer it was a killer for me and my examiners said i was much more confident when speaking than i was in written form #phdchat

@NSRiazat - Good point about different perspectives - hard to see bias in own writing -getting peers/supervisor to read/critique may be an idea #phdchat

@pennybridged - ridiculous! I so want to clean the bathroom instead of doing some work, #phdchat Self-distraction, grrrr

@JeffreyKeefer - Was lovely to stop by and work through this thinking. I have very much missed this. Will have to catch up later. Happy New Year #phdchat

@rou09 - @JeffreyKeefer r u writing ur dissertation,#phdchat

@ai1sa - @jenny_wakefield i think, some reserch methds r less about starting with logic & known trajectory; but end point makes it look so #phdchat

@kesloane - @NSRiazat My thinking/writing benefit greatly when I share my ideas and am questioned/critiqued by others. Can't work in a vacuum. #phdchat

@lizgloyn - @kesloane Completely agree. This whole lone academic toiling away at the cliff face of knowledge model is wholly overrated #phdchat

@JackieKirkham - @JeffreyKeefer @rou09 #phdchat a group of us formed a writing group, sometimes wrote for 1hr, other times critiqued others' work. V.helpful.

@NSRiazat - @JeffreyKeefer - happy new year Jeffrey. Hope to see more of you in 2012. :) #phdchat

@savasavasava - @NSRiazat I often get feedback about how I'm displaying how much I love what I'm researching - that's not a good way to write =) #phdchat

@JackieKirkham - @ai1sa @jenny_wakefield yes, part of trick is to make it look like logical succession of ideas, tho at the time was a jumble! #phdchat

@ChrisSPlant - @JackieKirkham @JeffreyKeefer @rou09 that does sound very helpful. How did that come about? Geat initiative on the students' part? #phdchat

@kesloane - @lizgloyn Yes. I need to start a writing group. Grand plan for new year! :) #phdchat

@lizgloyn - @kesloane Writing groups are *brilliant* - make your work so much better! #phdchat

@MisaimedBrain - @savasavasava @NSRiazat What's wrong with showing you love what you do? You should make it sound interesting! #phdchat

@JackieKirkham - @ChrisSPlant @JeffreyKeefer @rou09 yes, colleague had idea, we booked a room in library each wk and decided each wk what to do #phdchat

@ai1sa - better than making it seem that you hate it ;) #phdchat

@JackieKirkham - @savasavasava @NSRiazat I wld take that to be good feedback! I write best when I'm passionate about subject #phdchat

@MisaimedBrain - @ai1sa There were times when I talked about burning my thesis. #phdchat I think that is a normal thing to feel occasionally.

@annetteclancy - Just spent hours reformatting references in my writing after Endnote screwed them up., have to check every chapter now......#phdchat

@ai1sa - @annetteclancy are you using trackchanges ? I found its not compatable with EN #phdchat

@sarahthesheepu - @MisaimedBrain @ai1sa occasionally?! hmm for about 2 years i felt that its a rite of passage #phdchat

@annetteclancy - @ai1sa that may be part of the problem, because I have been using it - I hadn't thought of that, thanks for the tip....#phdchat

@ai1sa - @annetteclancy its also why i keep every chapter separate now. Plus Word really does not handle well in long docs #phdchat

@annetteclancy - @sarahthesheepu @ai1sa I keep chapters separate, file previous drafts & in fairness, this is the first screw up #phdchat

@ai1sa - @annetteclancy EN screwed me up 2x b4 i learnt this. So many tears. Now i get feedback from supervisor in coloured font instead #phdchat

@jenny_wakefield - @JeffreyKeefer #PhDchat LogicModel LM) lrnd bout frm Dr. Mike Spector. It's d same as u would use in program eval b shld also drive research

@EmmaBurnettx - @NSRiazat sorry to have not been able to join #phdchat this evening. Have a poorly teenager. Will catch up on the discussion later

@MisaimedBrain - @sarahthesheepu @ai1sa If I wanted to burn it *all* the time, I'd have probably dropped out by now. I have wanted to burn it lots. #phdchat

@sarahthesheepu - @MisaimedBrain @ai1sa i think mine was more circumstances but i got there so am happy #phdchat

@annetteclancy - @sarahthesheepu @ai1sa I will strip out all of the codes before I do that #phdchat

@ai1sa - @sarahthesheepu thankyou for that happy thought. Any tips? #phdchat

@MisaimedBrain - @sarahthesheepu and you almost got to be a reverend #phdchat

@ai1sa - @sarahthesheepu k so tip 1. allow lots of time for formatting whole doc #phdchat

@sarahthesheepu - @ai1sa other than dont use it lol, just make sure you have enough time at end to really go through it ref by ref #phdchat

@jenny_wakefield - @JeffreyKeefer #PhDchat LM start w defining the problem/need, validation, move 2wards desired outcome. The transformation occurs in between

@sarahthesheepu - @MisaimedBrain thanks to nat west bank yes lol idiots #phdchat

@lizgloyn - @savasavasava ...unless you've been finishing everything with the sentence "and in conclusion, SQUEEEEEE!!"? #phdchat

@ai1sa - @annetteclancy tip 2. always make a back up before mucking about with formatting #phdchat

@sarahthesheepu - @annetteclancy @ai1sa it is doable just make sure you have time i didnt and it was a nightmare which had to be corrected later #phdchat

@MisaimedBrain - @sarahthesheepu I'm looking forward to going into a bank after viva, see what hilarity results. #phdchat

@annetteclancy - @sarahthesheepu @ai1sa so track changes, long word documents - anything else that screws up @endnote formatting? #phdchat

@savasavasava - @lizgloyn almost hahaha. you know me too well ;) #phdchat

@ai1sa - @MisaimedBrain @sarahthesheepu i'm atypical. have always loved mine. parting could be a problem. All that i hate is formatting. #phdchat

@EndNoteNews - @annetteclancy #phdchat Can you tell me what 'screwed up' in your formatting? It would help a lot to know.

@JackieKirkham - @ai1sa @sarahthesheepu yes. And working out the contents page will cause tears and rage and take lots longer than u think! #phdchat

@ai1sa - @savasavasava ahh bias...my method lets me revel in it. No pretence of an objective researcher in actor-network theory #phdchat

@SavvyOD - I find that to be true for me as well. RT @kesloane: @NSRiazat My thinking/writing benefit greatly when I share my ideas ... #phdchat

@MisaimedBrain - @ai1sa @sarahthesheepu Remember, end to the PhD doesn't have to mean an end to the topic. #phdchat

@annetteclancy - @EndNoteNews I opened a chapter and citations had been replaced with incorrect ones..in some cases wrong author but correct page no #phdchat

@MisaimedBrain - I don't plan on letting my work end with my PhD if I can help it. #phdchat

@annetteclancy - @sarahthesheepu @ai1sa @EndNoteNews some users think it has to do with track changes and merging long word documents? #phdchat

@ai1sa - @annetteclancy oh yes!! Never save EN to dropbox unzipped. it will detach all files and attachements. #phdchat

@annetteclancy - @sarahthesheepu @ai1sa @EndNoteNews now I will have to manually check all references in the full thesis #phdchat

@EndNoteNews - @annetteclancy @sarahthesheepu @ai1sa #phdchat Track Changes is nobody's friend. I recommend working with EndNote's Instant Formatting off.

@ai1sa - @annetteclancy never drag and drop or save anywhere without making a copy first. EN on mac does not take well to being moved around #phdchat

@Falijn - I must side with you on that one... RT @JeffreyKeefer @rou09 Though time does make you see things differently too #PhDchat

@ai1sa - @MisaimedBrain (the extra stuff to the phd) my sup says "save it for the post doc life" #phdchat

@ai1sa - @EndNoteNews thanks for the wisdom, hadnt noted if i have instant formatting on or off #phdchat

@NSRiazat - 8.30pm brings us to end of busy #phdchat session - the last one for 2011. Thanks for making it such a great year. Look forward to 2012. :)

@kesloane - Happy New Year, all! Thanks again for a great chat. #phdchat

@JackieKirkham - @NSRiazat thanks for hosting #phdchat Nasima. Happy new year to all phdchatters!

@Falijn - Me too, Chris. Need to keep mymessage in mind before writing (and after scrutinising the evidence) RT @JeffreyKeefer @ChrisSPlant #phdchat

@ai1sa - good chatting today fellow phders. happy new year to all. #phdchat

@s_holloway - @LBA_OX12 @misaimedbrain I'd actually say that it gets more difficult, as new work written in context of completed chapters #phdchat

@EndNoteNews - @annetteclancy #phdchat @sarahthesheepu @ai1sa Apparently Dropbox doesn't work well with databases. Not sure why it would shift citations.

@kesloane - @NSRiazat Thank you for creating this forum! I really appreciate the shared wisdom, kindness & tricks of the trade. Happy New Year! #phdchat

@MisaimedBrain - @NSRiazat Thank you for another great #phdchat session!

@sarahthesheepu - @JackieKirkham @ai1sa oh god yes blooming auto contents page in word yeah right #phdchat

@annetteclancy - @EndNoteNews @sarahthesheepu @ai1sa and the lesson is, never trust technology!! #phdchat

@sarahthesheepu - @annetteclancy @ai1sa @EndNoteNews it could be that i dont know what the trigger was but it certainly killed it #phdchat

@annetteclancy - @sarahthesheepu @EndNoteNews @ai1sa mind you, doing it manually isnt' an option either #phdchat

@EndNoteNews - @annetteclancy #phdchat Not sure I'd draw that conclusion. Maybe just know how things interact, like medicine.

@EndNoteNews - #phdchat You guys can try the forums too. I think most of these things are discussed there. http://t.co/ih7VHORj

@MisaimedBrain - @sarahthesheepu @annetteclancy @ai1sa I'm going to hope I have better luck with Menderley... #phdchat

@EndNoteNews - @MisaimedBrain #phdchat With formatting issues in a word processor you probably won't, but I don't think that's for me to say.

@tsrblke - @EndNoteNews Instant Formatting off needs to be the default in X6 (or X5.02) #phdchat

@EndNoteNews - @tsrblke #phdchat I think it may have been the default previously, but I don't remember. That's definitely something to consider.

@lservage - #phdchat I guess it's not surprising that PhD tweeters would also be a bunch of app/software geeks too! :-)

@drjavafox - aw sorry I missed the last #phdchat of 2011 :-( I'll be back either lurking or participating in 2012, happy new year all x

@NSRiazat - @sarahthesheepu @JackieKirkham @ai1sa - have been doing draft contents page, references, bibliography etc manually since start. #phdchat

@shireeheath - @ChrisSPlant ... yep, I feel most comfortable writing hypotheses - conclusions - introduction - then fill in the gaps. #PhDChat

@JackieKirkham - @NSRiazat @sarahthesheepu @ai1sa I did mine all manually too, but left contents till last minute which was big mistake! #phdchat

@sarahthesheepu - @JackieKirkham @NSRiazat @ai1sa yes contents is an evil thing #phdchat

@NSRiazat - @Janshs - when you quote literature in thesis do you have to put page refs of where quote can be found in original article/book? #phdchat

@JackieKirkham - @NSRiazat do it now, will save time and frustration later! #phdchat (tho easy for me to say, it's not me having to do it!)

@JackieKirkham - @NSRiazat hah, best check with supervisor. As OU AL, refs as much of headache for me as students! esp with online OU sources #phdchat

@agherdien - Thnx 2 all #phdchat peeps. I really aprciate ideas/advice/insights. Hv a gr8 2012

@NSRiazat - @sarahthesheepu @JackieKirkham @ai1sa - been fairly organised throughout in terms of structure but will still have a lot to do. #phdchat

@sarahthesheepu - @NSRiazat @JackieKirkham @ai1sa youll be fine as long as you know the format etc takes an age #phdchat

@Janshs - @NSRiazat ok sorry bout that, yes if direct quote need page ref #PhDchat

@klbz - For Xmas, I received FOUR books to read for pleasure. I'd almost forgotten that existed. #phdchat #reasonstobecheerful

@Work_and_Family - A call for papers: "Researching The Work/Non-Work Interface" http://t.co/7FwxFE8F RT @WLBpostgrad #worklife #DOP #occpsych #phdchat

@NSRiazat - @klbz - trying to keep reading fiction during PhD but sometimes lose skill to be able to read for pleasure after study sessions. #phdchat

@profragsdale - Erg! I have 2 re-do a bunch of charts & graphs bcuz I had ONE town listed w the wrong founding date! #phdchat #blacktowns

@aeratcliffe - @rjacquez @ayyappan Very sad experience with @adobe over past few days. Bottom-line, system won't allow me to submit edu ID... #phdchat

@aeratcliffe - @rjacquez @ayyappan ...for UK univ while living in Canada. Conflicting info provided. Now say no. But, upgrade to system in future. #phdchat

@aeratcliffe - @rjacquez @ayyappan Ident center will validate manually, but not without product code which isn't given until validation is done! #phdchat

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